who's in charge?

[franksolich]

I'm reading D-Day (Stephen Ambrose, 1994, Simon & Shuster), a book that's been around a while, but which I hadn't read before.

Two questions, possibly stupid ones, pop up.

In a description of getting men ashore on Omaha Beach, apparently the toughest nut to crack, there's a story about how some boat pilots (coxswains, skippers, captains, whatever) refused to proceed because they were afraid of the heavy enemy fire.

Apparently at Normandy, the Navy transported the Army.

The writer fails to explain what happened next; only that the boats withdrew, or headed to the beaches held by the British (in other words, not landing near Omaha Beach at all).

The Army had ordered the Navy to proceed, and the Navy refused.

In such instances, who had the final say-so about what was to be done?

Incidentally, I was shocked, and truly saddened, as this was the first time in my whole life, ever, that I learned of the U.S. Navy possessing some small pockets of cowardice.

Caveat, however--being a professional civilian and never having been under concentrated enemy fire, I have no idea what I'm talking about, and may just be a primitive, about this "cowardice" bit.  If one hasn't confronted something himself, probably it's not a good idea to criticize those who have.

I'm not done with the book yet, but I'm getting the impression the Navy was more concerned about its boats, than about the Army riding its boats (such as opening the gates when still far out--far out enough to avoid the boat being hit by enemy fire, but too far out for the Army to march ashore).

Also, there's accounts of Navy men ending up on the beaches, and as they had no way of getting back to their boats, they were immediately impressed into the Army as infantrymen, right there on the shore.

Are Navy men trained in infantry combat?

At least enough to get by?

Again, I've never faced what those men faced on June 6, 1944, and so I'm really no judge, but it does seem that the Army outshone the Navy that day, in courage, in heroism, in valor, in all things pleasing to God.

[TxRadioguy]

In such instances, who had the final say-so about what was to be done?

The person with the highest amount of stars on their collar points usually has operational control of the situation.

Are Navy men trained in infantry combat?

Yes frank believe it or not there is a Naval Infantry branch of the USN...most of us call them Marines!   

[Lord Undies]

Like my brother, a veteran of the Korean aftermath, told me, when it's just you and the other side, you are in charge - or at least you better be.

(my older brother is much older than I.  He was in the army when I was six.)

[franksolich]

Yes frank believe it or not there is a Naval Infantry branch of the USN...most of us call them Marines!

However, sir.

I got the impression from the book that these were plain ordinary sailors, not Marines, who upon finding themselves on the beach and no boat to get back onto, were immediately drafted into the Army and sent out as Army infantry.

Scrambling through the battle in their white uniforms, bell-bottoms, round caps.

The little guys in the Navy, not the Marines.

There's probably untold stories of heroism and courage and valor there too, because I suppose the little guys were never trained in infantry stuff, fighting on ground, and so the casualties must have been horrendous.

But as long as God knows of their deeds, that's all that counts.  The rest of us can only sit back in awe and wonder at the sacrifices they made.

[TxRadioguy]

However, sir.

I got the impression from the book that these were plain ordinary sailors, not Marines, who upon finding themselves on the beach and no boat to get back onto, were immediately drafted into the Army and sent out as Army infantry.

You are correct.  I was poking fun at our Jar Head brethren here with my naval Infantry quip.

Scrambling through the battle in their white uniforms, bell-bottoms, round caps.

The little guys in the Navy, not the Marines.

Most Sailors aren't taught the same thing in basic training that Army Soldiers or Marines are.

Different jobs require a different set of basic skills that need to be taught.

There's probably untold stories of heroism and courage and valor there too, because I suppose the little guys were never trained in infantry stuff, fighting on ground, and so the casualties must have been horrendous.

Yes and there are many tales of heroism by the Navy and Coast Guard Coxswains that drove those boats to the beach under murderous machine gun fire to deliver troops that died within ten feet of the boat...then they went back got more and did it again.

But as long as God knows of their deeds, that's all that counts.  The rest of us can only sit back in awe and wonder at the sacrifices they made.

The actor Eddie Albert comes to mind.
[/quote]

[NHSparky]

Believe it or not, coach, most of the amphib landing craft were manned not by Navy, but Coast Guardsmen.  Believe it or not, few Navy personnel had the skill to run small landing craft on the beach.

Hope the following links help:

LINK

LINK 2

[formerlurker]

Yes frank believe it or not there is a Naval Infantry branch of the USN...most of us call them Marines!   

 

[franksolich]

Most Sailors aren't taught the same thing in basic training that Army Soldiers or Marines are.

Different jobs require a different set of basic skills that need to be taught.

Right; that's why I'm intrigued.

From the book, one gets the impression that there were probably a few hundred sailors drafted into the infantry on the spot, on the beach.

One wonders what happened to them; I suspect they all must have perished.

No onus on the Army.  It looks to me as if the situation on Omaha Beach was desperate, and if I were an Army officer, I'd probably be drafting one-armed men, not to mention medics and chaplains, into the infantry.

The situation was desperate.  One does what one can, with what one has.

But it would be analogous to giving franksolich a firearm and ordering him to work his way up a steep cliff; probably I could pull the trigger maybe two times, but not having any infantry skills, inevitably I'd probably get shot, trying to deal with a terrain and tactics about which I know nothing.

[franksolich]

Now posted here, for additional insight and illumination:

http://www.freerepublic.c...s/f-vetscor/2257751/posts

[TxRadioguy]

there were probably a few hundred sailors drafted into the infantry on the spot, on the beach.

Frank quite honestly...in a situation like that...if you want to have ANY hope of staying alive...the phrase "that's not my job" doesn't exist.

I don't know for sure but I imagine there was more than a few instances of "Hey you what's your name?  Well Kolwalski grab that rifle and get behind that tank trap over there and shoot anyone that looks like a Kraut".

One wonders what happened to them; I suspect they all must have perished.

You've seen the opening scene from Saving Private Ryan?  Yeah...the first few waves of U.S./Coalition soldiers were toast.

No onus on the Army.  It looks to me as if the situation on Omaha Beach was desperate, and if I were an Army officer, I'd probably be drafting one-armed men, not to mention medics and chaplains, into the infantry.

The situation was desperate.  One does what one can, with what one has.

If you want to read about one of the heroes of D-Day and IMHO the one that kept the whole landing from falling apart...check out Brigadier General Theodore Roosevelt, Jr.  Assistant Division Commander of the 4th ID at Omaha Beach.

But it would be analogous to giving franksolich a firearm and ordering him to work his way up a steep cliff; probably I could pull the trigger maybe two times, but not having any infantry skills, inevitably I'd probably get shot, trying to deal with a terrain and tactics about which I know nothing.

I don't know how others wold do it frank...but if I were in the situation of giving you a rifle and telling you to defend yourself...knowing you were a civilian trapped on a battlefield...I'd try to put you in a position that you would be the best concealed and stand the best chance to stay alive.  It would take an extraordinary circumstance for that to ever happen...but if I were to ever find myself there...that's what I'd do.

[NHSparky]

To expand or give another example of what TRG said, consider the case of Joe Galloway in the Ia Drang valley during the Vietnam War.  The situation was so bad he was given a rifle, to which he said, "But I'm a civilian."  He was then told, "No such thing today."

Joe Galloway is the only civilian to have received a Bronze Star with "V" device during the Vietnam era.

[JohnnyReb]

To expand or give another example of what TRG said, consider the case of Joe Galloway in the Ia Drang valley during the Vietnam War.  The situation was so bad he was given a rifle, to which he said, "But I'm a civilian."  He was then told, "No such thing today."

Joe Galloway is the only civilian to have received a Bronze Star with "V" device during the Vietnam era.

You should read about the Marines and construction personel on Wake Island (WW2).

When someone is shooting at you, you ain't a civilian anymore.

[rich_t]

When someone is shooting at you, you ain't a civilian anymore.

Very true.  As Joe Galloway found out.

[FGL]

To expand or give another example of what TRG said, consider the case of Joe Galloway in the Ia Drang valley during the Vietnam War.  The situation was so bad he was given a rifle, to which he said, "But I'm a civilian."  He was then told, "No such thing today."

Joe Galloway is the only civilian to have received a Bronze Star with "V" device during the Vietnam era.

from a civilian POV, it seems ludicrous that someone who was mopping a deck one day ends up in Normandy as a foot soldier

[franksolich]

from a civilian POV, it seems ludicrous that someone who was mopping a deck one day ends up in Normandy as a foot soldier.

Well, that's what I'm wondering about.

I suspect there must have been hundreds of those cases, stranded boatless sailors suddenly and without warning ending up in an infantry.

Of course, there's no blame for this; the situation was desperate, and one has to do what one can, with what one has.  If I had been an Army officer, I probably would have done exactly the same thing, drafting all hands, even those with only one hand, the other arm having just been shot off.

I'm sure that none of these sailors-turned-soldiers managed to survive, and so their stories have never been told.  If no one's around to tell something, no story.

I feel an almost sacred obligation to remember the Forgotten, as well as the Remembered.  But as mentioned earlier, their sacrifices are known to God, and that's what counts.